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The will of God?
#1
As I said in an earlier post everything started in someones imagination or ‘dream’
The greatest dreamer ever is our creator, God. ‘Out of nothing I created something, out of chaos I created order’. (Genesis)
God dreamed, imagined and visualised. You, me, and everything from solar systems to atoms, he took nothing (zero) and split in to two equal and opposite factors, negative and positive, yin and yang, matter and anti-matter, good and evil, light and dark, in fact all opposites, and all in equal proportion. This has to be to maintain the balance, and allow appreciation.
Scientists have discovered the existence of anti-matter which they believe was created in the ‘Big Bang’
The really great thing about this is that when God created us he created us in his OWN IMAGE (let us make man in our image, Genesis) which means that we have the same capabilities with regard to imagination and visualisation, and to some degree creation because as we are in his image we are ourselves at least demi-gods and have an everlasting spirit.
The upside of Gods creation method is that it is infinite, and can continue to grow ad infinitum. The downside is that the potential for good and evil were created in equal parts.
So Gods will. I suppose it could be said that anything which would please God would be his will, and anything else would not be so. It seems from scripture that he revels in praise and worship, he says in the commandments that he is jealous and will not share his praise with any other God, maybe this is  a sign of insecurity.
Satan was once a great Arch-Angel, Lucifer, the bringer of light. It seems he offended God and was forever after called ‘Satan’. Satan is not a name but an Arabic word which simply means ‘The Opposer’, so Satan is apparently the one who opposes Gods will.
So let’s look at the concept of the ‘Will of God’ for a moment.
When God created everything he created it in perfection.
According to the Adamic creation myth in Genesis in the Hebrew Bible he created Adam on the sixth day, then he created Eve to be his mate/companion.
They lived in a perfect, idyllic state, Eden. I personally don’t believe that Eden was a geographical location, but that it was a state of being, a state of blissful perfection.
So, what were Adam and Eve to do in this state of perfection? Was it Gods will that they should just stay there, subservient and obedient. What of free will? It seems that there was no free will until the tempter, Satan, tempted Eve, who succumbed and then tempted Adam. So apparently free will only entered when Satan caused it to be. Was he doing Gods will by introducing us to free will, and in the case of Adam and Eve rebellion.
Later in the Bible we have the story of Job. He had everything, wealth, land, family etc. and God was pleased because Job obeyed his commandments and loved God.
Apparently at that time Satan and God were close, even on good terms it seems because Satan caused doubt in Gods mind about Jobs love for him. Would he still love him if he had nothing? So God stripped poor Job of all his wealth and family. Job still praised God, so God repented and caused him to regain his losses. Was this test of Jobs love Gods will, or Satans? Or was Satan actually doing Gods will by creating the doubt in the mind of God? Or is Satan another side of God? We have doubts, we have bad thoughts. We are just as capable of evil as we are capable of good. We are after all created in Gods image, so as in the heavenly so in the earthly, was God actually tempted, (it is written, thou shallt not bring the lord thy God to the test’) or was it Gods own thought?
This is a difficult concept as we have always been taught that God is good, God is love and above all God is infallible! If that is so why, and how even, would God allow himself to be swayed by Satans guile.
When I was a young man my wife and I attended a Bible study group called the Carpenters shop.
I have always been a free thinker and love meaningful discussion, the deeper the better, and so was disappointed at the passages selected by the diesis which we were to discuss.
One day, approaching Easter, the passage, which I’m sure you’re all familiar with, was to be the last supper. Everyone inn the group denounced Judas as being evil, me on the other hand, argued that he was doing the will of God as he was told by Jesus to ‘do what you must do quickly’ and could therefore not possibly called ‘evil’ for carrying out Gods will.
My days of Bible study in that group were finished. I was told my presence was no longer required. I was both blasphemous and evil for coming up with such an idea.
Many things we see as being evil or wrong, when looked at from a different angle have a meaning, a truth, or perhaps are a means to an end.
But how do we know what is, and isn’t the will of God. It is said ‘the Lord moves in mysterious ways’.
Often something will happen in our lives to force us into action, or to change direction. Sometimes it is a bad thing, sometimes someone is hurt or even dies.
The Lords prayer says, ‘lead us not into temptation’. This would indicate that God will also tempt us, or put us in a situation whereby we may act wrongly. If we succumb to this are we doing the will of God, or have we failed the test?
The Lords prayer also says, ’thy will be done’. Does this tell us not to use our free will, but just to follow blindly the doctrines and dogmas of religion?
Many things that happen are passed off as being ‘the will of God’ because we can do nothing to change them, but really things happen and neither God nor man has anything to do with them.
Is God like a strict parent, do as I say or there will be trouble, or are we allowed negotiation? Lot tried to negotiate with God regarding the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, he and his family were allowed to leave, but the cities were still destroyed. Interestingly though Lot and his family were told not to look back. It would be difficult not to take a last look at the home you’ve had for years. Lots wife took that sentimental look back and was turned into a pillar of salt. Punishment for not obeying Gods will?
Throughout the Bible it can be seen that God is not impartial, God has favourites, even within his favourite people, the Israelites, and in exercising his will there are winners and losers.
Bringing this down to a base level, I never ask Gods help in a sporting event. I know some people do, but I, in my naivety, consider God to be impartial. There are still those however who praise God for the victory or blame him for their loss.   
 
According to Paul in Romans 12:1–2 it is the will of God that all of life would become spiritual worship, from this we would see that all God is interested in is continuous praise and worship. We must remember however that Paul was once a hunter of Christians and maybe his dogma and bigotry is an attempt to atone for his earlier behaviour.
There are many verses in the Bible (Proverbs, Romans, Thessalonians) which tell us to sacrifice our will to the will of God, but again this I feel is a somewhat unrealistic attitude because unless we know Gods plan we can’t really be a part of it, and if we relinquish our free will we are then bound to servitude for eternity.
So what of the will of God. I have taken a long time over this post. I have given it a lot of thought, meditated, and even prayed, ( I don’t really pray, I talk to God) but I cannot come up with anything really profound, I do hope however that this post will generate some kind of discussion, and maybe some of you can shed more light on this subject and develop this post further.
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  • Joel Biwott
#2
Don’t feel bad about getting kicked out of your Bible study group.
I got kicked out of Sunday School before I was 10, when our teacher was talking about those who disobey God would be thrown in a pit of fire for eternity.
She asked me what I thought.
‘I don’t want any thing to do with that horrible god. The God I know loves all of us unconditionally and would never throw us in to a pit of fire for eternity.’
Embarrassed my Mother, but she lived tru it.

I tend to think all of us have direct communication with Creator. All we need to do is listen, which can be hard to do when other thoughts, several thoughts, running tru our head. Takes time to LEARN how to listen. However we ALL get there.

Looking forward for more replies and input for this thread 
Great subject.
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  • popsthebuilder, johngefnir
#3
(07-08-2018, 02:12 AM)johngefnir Wrote: As I said in an earlier post everything started in someones imagination or ‘dream’
The greatest dreamer ever is our creator, God. ‘Out of nothing I created something, out of chaos I created order’. (Genesis)
God dreamed, imagined and visualised. You, me, and everything from solar systems to atoms, he took nothing (zero) and split in to two equal and opposite factors, negative and positive, yin and yang, matter and anti-matter, good and evil, light and dark, in fact all opposites, and all in equal proportion. This has to be to maintain the balance, and allow appreciation.
Scientists have discovered the existence of anti-matter which they believe was created in the ‘Big Bang’
The really great thing about this is that when God created us he created us in his OWN IMAGE (let us make man in our image, Genesis) which means that we have the same capabilities with regard to imagination and visualisation, and to some degree creation because as we are in his image we are ourselves at least demi-gods and have an everlasting spirit.
The upside of Gods creation method is that it is infinite, and can continue to grow ad infinitum. The downside is that the potential for good and evil were created in equal parts.
So Gods will. I suppose it could be said that anything which would please God would be his will, and anything else would not be so. It seems from scripture that he revels in praise and worship, he says in the commandments that he is jealous and will not share his praise with any other God, maybe this is  a sign of insecurity.
Satan was once a great Arch-Angel, Lucifer, the bringer of light. It seems he offended God and was forever after called ‘Satan’. Satan is not a name but an Arabic word which simply means ‘The Opposer’, so Satan is apparently the one who opposes Gods will.
So let’s look at the concept of the ‘Will of God’ for a moment.
When God created everything he created it in perfection.
According to the Adamic creation myth in Genesis in the Hebrew Bible he created Adam on the sixth day, then he created Eve to be his mate/companion.
They lived in a perfect, idyllic state, Eden. I personally don’t believe that Eden was a geographical location, but that it was a state of being, a state of blissful perfection.
So, what were Adam and Eve to do in this state of perfection? Was it Gods will that they should just stay there, subservient and obedient. What of free will? It seems that there was no free will until the tempter, Satan, tempted Eve, who succumbed and then tempted Adam. So apparently free will only entered when Satan caused it to be. Was he doing Gods will by introducing us to free will, and in the case of Adam and Eve rebellion.
Later in the Bible we have the story of Job. He had everything, wealth, land, family etc. and God was pleased because Job obeyed his commandments and loved God.
Apparently at that time Satan and God were close, even on good terms it seems because Satan caused doubt in Gods mind about Jobs love for him. Would he still love him if he had nothing? So God stripped poor Job of all his wealth and family. Job still praised God, so God repented and caused him to regain his losses. Was this test of Jobs love Gods will, or Satans? Or was Satan actually doing Gods will by creating the doubt in the mind of God? Or is Satan another side of God? We have doubts, we have bad thoughts. We are just as capable of evil as we are capable of good. We are after all created in Gods image, so as in the heavenly so in the earthly, was God actually tempted, (it is written, thou shallt not bring the lord thy God to the test’) or was it Gods own thought?
This is a difficult concept as we have always been taught that God is good, God is love and above all God is infallible! If that is so why, and how even, would God allow himself to be swayed by Satans guile.
When I was a young man my wife and I attended a Bible study group called the Carpenters shop.
I have always been a free thinker and love meaningful discussion, the deeper the better, and so was disappointed at the passages selected by the diesis which we were to discuss.
One day, approaching Easter, the passage, which I’m sure you’re all familiar with, was to be the last supper. Everyone inn the group denounced Judas as being evil, me on the other hand, argued that he was doing the will of God as he was told by Jesus to ‘do what you must do quickly’ and could therefore not possibly called ‘evil’ for carrying out Gods will.
My days of Bible study in that group were finished. I was told my presence was no longer required. I was both blasphemous and evil for coming up with such an idea.
Many things we see as being evil or wrong, when looked at from a different angle have a meaning, a truth, or perhaps are a means to an end.
But how do we know what is, and isn’t the will of God. It is said ‘the Lord moves in mysterious ways’.
Often something will happen in our lives to force us into action, or to change direction. Sometimes it is a bad thing, sometimes someone is hurt or even dies.
The Lords prayer says, ‘lead us not into temptation’. This would indicate that God will also tempt us, or put us in a situation whereby we may act wrongly. If we succumb to this are we doing the will of God, or have we failed the test?
The Lords prayer also says, ’thy will be done’. Does this tell us not to use our free will, but just to follow blindly the doctrines and dogmas of religion?
Many things that happen are passed off as being ‘the will of God’ because we can do nothing to change them, but really things happen and neither God nor man has anything to do with them.
Is God like a strict parent, do as I say or there will be trouble, or are we allowed negotiation? Lot tried to negotiate with God regarding the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, he and his family were allowed to leave, but the cities were still destroyed. Interestingly though Lot and his family were told not to look back. It would be difficult not to take a last look at the home you’ve had for years. Lots wife took that sentimental look back and was turned into a pillar of salt. Punishment for not obeying Gods will?
Throughout the Bible it can be seen that God is not impartial, God has favourites, even within his favourite people, the Israelites, and in exercising his will there are winners and losers.
Bringing this down to a base level, I never ask Gods help in a sporting event. I know some people do, but I, in my naivety, consider God to be impartial. There are still those however who praise God for the victory or blame him for their loss.   
 
According to Paul in Romans 12:1–2 it is the will of God that all of life would become spiritual worship, from this we would see that all God is interested in is continuous praise and worship. We must remember however that Paul was once a hunter of Christians and maybe his dogma and bigotry is an attempt to atone for his earlier behaviour.
There are many verses in the Bible (Proverbs, Romans, Thessalonians) which tell us to sacrifice our will to the will of God, but again this I feel is a somewhat unrealistic attitude because unless we know Gods plan we can’t really be a part of it, and if we relinquish our free will we are then bound to servitude for eternity.
So what of the will of God. I have taken a long time over this post. I have given it a lot of thought, meditated, and even prayed, ( I don’t really pray, I talk to God) but I cannot come up with anything really profound, I do hope however that this post will generate some kind of discussion, and maybe some of you can shed more light on this subject and develop this post further.

Thank you for the time and effort you have put here.

I will breifly go over what I think needs to be addressed and maybe we can continue discussion from there.

"The downside is that the potential for good and evil were created in equal parts."

This isn't a down side as the alternative would be existence without choice or freedom or potential. If literally everything was good and there was no bad then bliss would be changed to just being. One cannot know good without a metric or it will no longer be good but normal. With no metric we wouldnt even call it good.
Without freedom we would be automations or plants or rocks or something of the sort that wouldnt resemble humans at all; not intellectually surely.

"So Gods will. I suppose it could be said that anything which would please God would be his will, and anything else would not be so." This statement made me think. As it is my will to do what pleases me, there could be a correlation between what GOD brings about and that such would of course be HIS will.

". It seems from scripture that he revels in praise and worship, he says in the commandments that he is jealous and will not share his praise with any other God, maybe this is  a sign of insecurity."

Our praise and worship of GOD are to HIS glorification not because HE is insecure, but for our sake alone. The same can be said about HIS purported jealousy and wrath. These things are for the ultimate sake and direction of HIS creation for HIS will to ultimately be done though we are free and with exponential potential (hey that rhymes). Omnipotence and omniscience negate the plausibility of GOD being insecure to me.

"Satan was once a great Arch-Angel, Lucifer, the bringer of light. It seems he offended God and was forever after called ‘Satan’. Satan is not a name but an Arabic word which simply means ‘The Opposer’, so Satan is apparently the one who opposes Gods will."

Going into the supposed origins of satan; Satan has always been portrayed as proud, greedy, and to not willingly succumb to the will of GOD (showing some level of freedom). Satan is always regarded as attached to the Earth and has links to metals which were added to the composition of the earth. satan can be seen as related to the wind or sea in that it tosses one, turns them, wearies them, distresses them. You denoted a duality in all existence nearly early in your post. This duality is within us as well; each of us, at very least as potential, but more likely hidden in plain sight of self.

"When God created everything he created it in perfection"

Could you go into further detail here please; perhaps with references to sacred texts that may verify or expand on your meaning?

"So, what were Adam and Eve to do in this state of perfection? Was it Gods will that they should just stay there, subservient and obedient."

They had freedom to do all they will, but eat the fruit of "knowledge" to me this knowledge is based again around greed and pride; things abject to GOD for our own sake/ benefit as a unit, not individually. Would one be bored if they had unlimited potential except that potential which would lead to death, or rather be against the will of GOD for HIS creation which was created for a purpose which is not self destruction? Adam and Eve (man as a whole)always had potential for evil
It seems to have been the will of GOD that they never knew one side of that potential, though a seeming inevitability given freedom and potential. Your points on eden/ heaven/ paradise are of interest to me, as in this state man was formed, and in this state man will return if they but turn from the oppressor and towards the will of GOD. Now may be a good time for me to attempt to explain that though one may, without ceasing, turn from GOD and towards greed it will only ever be a guidance and lesson; perhaps not for that particular individual, but for those after. That doesn't mean it isn't the will of GOD that said individual turn towards HIM and be steadfast in HIS cause. So we see now that when one says even what satan does will only ever glorify GOD, what can be discerned from such is that though some may forfiet eternity in favor of the temporal; none will ever thwart the will of GOD which is for all HIS creation to return unto HIM.

"Satan caused doubt in Gods mind about Jobs love for him."

I need scriptural support for the above statement please. The story of Job is a lesson to not waiver regardless of what one may perceive as bad or evil or wrong that has affected their own temporal existence. Job knew GOD is Holy. He knew this blink of an eye we call life is but an opportunity/ test. He did not waiver though his very body did. It was counted to him as righteousness in the sight of GOD. He has the name of friend of GOD due to such. All stories in the Bible are for our edification and spiritual growth; not to instill such idol thoughts as GOD being with doubt in any thing whatsoever or that HE allowed for even the evil of man's hands to ultimately do anything but turn HIS creation towards HIS light for the sake of All.

You ask if GOD was tempted. By what I ask?

As far as Jonas is concerned, and his actions. Who are we to claim his actions were contrary to the will of GOD? In fact; if he didn't carry out the will of GOD then Jesus wouldn't have been put to the tree being the Way and a guidance for all.

We know what is and isn't the will of GOD via the Spirit of GOD and the selfless concience within ones own life. We know of the fruit of the Spirit and this is the metric to know outward works and as such the spirit behind said works. This applies to self as well though more generally one who has just begun a "spiritual" journey if you will.

"God will also tempt us, or put us in a situation whereby we may act wrongly."

Though we may find ourselves in such a position as to have the capacity for wrong, we shouldn't consider it as GOD tempting us. To me it is our own freedom and greed that tempts us; GOD leaves us with a way out. Though we are tested by GOD, we are tempted by the opposite, yet potential to know both and to learn from both is indeed within each of us if we can relinquish fear. Indeed; one may need to wallow in the dark and filth of the mire to ever see it's contrast to the Light.

". If we succumb to this are we doing the will of God, or have we failed the test?"

Is there breath in your lungs? Is there a will for what is good or utter indifference/ chaos? When is the race of this life over for each of us? I hope you have answered your own question upon contemplating mine here.

"Does this tell us not to use our free will, but just to follow blindly the doctrines and dogmas of religion?"

Indeed not. We are not instructed to be blind in anything; even faith. We are told to test all things by the Spirit that we have communion with through a life of actual belief/ faithfulness. One is to do out of genuine sincerity of heart for the sake of creation in love for/ faithfulness to the Word of GOD.

"Many things that happen are passed off as being ‘the will of God’ because we can do nothing to change them, but really things happen and neither God nor man has anything to do with them"

This isn't true on any level to me. Please explain your reasoning here.


I think this is more than enough of a response to your initial post and believe we should widdle down these issues before moving forward in a broad sweeping motion. I look forward to your response.

peace

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#4
Fantastic response Skytiger, I never expected anyone to dissect and analyse my post in such a way. You have given these points much thought, and your reasoning is sound. I am tied up for the next couple of days, but when I'm back I will pay you the same honour you have paid me and think further into the subject. I do put some things in e.g. God being perhaps insecure, because sometimes I play devils advocate to promote a reaction and discussion. I will be back in a couple of days. Thanks for your input, I look forward to our discussion and I hope others too will join us.
Blessed be.
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  • MOONBEARSPEAKS
#5
Just a heads up, my husband and I will be gone on a trip for most of next wk.
We will have our hot spot and computers, but Will be enjoying our visit in south New Mexico most of the time. 
Just don’t want you to think I'm ignoring you. Smile
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#6
Thank you johngefnir for presenting this post and to those who have responded so far. 
There is so much to discover and comprehend here, not least discerning what is biblically reported as the WORD of God and the WILL of God. 
Since we are faced with the fact that the bible is a collection of remembered, possibly mis-remembered past events, recorded (sometimes long) after those events, great care must be given to quoting extracts from The Book.

I really look forward to your further discussion, guys.
I am a Spiritual Being having a Human Experience
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#7
(07-09-2018, 08:26 PM)MOONBEARSPEAKS Wrote: Thank you johngefnir for presenting this post and to those who have responded so far. 
There is so much to discover and comprehend here, not least discerning what is biblically reported as the WORD of God and the WILL of God. 
Since we are faced with the fact that the bible is a collection of remembered, possibly mis-remembered past events, recorded (sometimes long) after those events, great care must be given to quoting extracts from The Book.

I really look forward to your further discussion, guys.
Is that you asking for leveled biblical reference friend?

peace

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  •
#8
Hi Popsthebuilder, and all other interested parties. I am sorry this post has taken so long to appear. I have had to do some meditating, I will try to answer your points in the best way possible.
Remember we are all bound by our beliefs, faith and indoctrination, I however follow a different path. That of the Gnostic.
As Moonbearspeaks correctly states, the Bible is a collection of anecdotal stories. There was no CNN or BBC reporters on hand when God created the universe, or when the flood occurred, or even when Jesus was born. A Bishop friend of mine told me years ago, ‘remember John, the Bible was written by man for man, it is a compendium of other peoples thoughts and beliefs. A very small part of it can be considered as the word of God. Read not the words, but what is hidden behind them’.
We know there are inaccuracies in the Bible, Jesus’ birthday is given as December 25th, this cannot be so as there were lambs. The lambing season in Israel and Palestine is February to April, so Jesus was most probably born in March.
The reason we have December is because that was the birthday of Mithras, Ra, Lugh, Horus, and of course in one of the Roman religions Sol Invictus! For the new Christians it was easier to change the name than the date.
So what is religion? It is commonly supposed to be a belief system, based on divine entities and a path to spirituality.
All cultures had Gods, and followed what we could call a ‘religion’.
Ancient civilisations worshiped the spirit of the things which sustained them in life, trees, rivers etc. the Celts had a sophisticated religious culture based on nature and natural laws, the Egyptians had a religion based on the stars, and in particular Ra, the Sun God. The Judaic/Christian Bible and Koran is believed to be the inspired word of God.
This is not strictly so.
I must state at this point that I am not in favour of religions, any religion, I have studied many religions, primarily the Christian religion of course and attended many discussion groups. I have also looked at Hindu, Sikh and Buddhism. There are good things in all religious tenets, and many cross overs and convergences, so I don’t discount the value of a religious belief and would never criticise anyone for their faith.
Religion has been described as being mans search for God, while Mysticism is mans relationship with the Divine.
I am telling you this so you can see that my views are completely unbiased, I also believe that no matter what your religious view there is only one God/Creator spirit and he hears us all.
So Popsthebuilder you want scriptural evidence, but can we believe the evidence of the Biblical writers? Nothing was written at the time it happened, or when the words were spoken.
For example Genesis is purported to have been written by Moses. According to the Torah there are 26 generations between Adam and Moses, so how did Moses know what God was saying when he allegedly said, ‘let us make man in our own image’, and who was he talking to?
Supposition and guesswork, or just a fairy tale? (my note here, a question not a statement of fact).
I suppose some of you think I’m a little weird. I am a Mystic, I walk between the worlds. I am not a fortune teller, only God knows the future, but I talk with people past. I have communed in meditation with those far more knowledgeable than me.
I have gathered together some ‘scriptural evidence’ of Gods’ temptations. Chapter and verse so you can see for yourself.
 
Job chapter1
1.There once was a man in the land of Uza named Job. The man was blameless as well as upright. He feared God and kept away from evil.
2. Seven sons and three daughters had been born to him.
3. His livestock included 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 teams of oxen, 500 female donkeys, and many servants. Indeed, the man’s stature greatly exceeded that of many people who lived in the East.
4. His sons used to travel to each other’s houses in turn on a regular schedule and hold festivals, inviting their three sisters to celebrate with them.
5. When their time of feasting had concluded, Job would rise early in the morning to send for them and consecrate them to God. He would offer a burnt offering for each one, because Job thought, ‘Perhaps my children sinned by cursing God in their hearts.’ Job did this time and time again.
6. One day, divine beings presented themselves to the LORD, and Satan accompanied them.
7. The LORD asked Satan, ‘Where have you come from?’
In response, Satan answered the LORD, ‘From wandering all over the earth and walking back and forth throughout it.’
8. Then the LORD asked Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on earth. The man is blameless as well as upright. He fears God and keeps away from evil.”
9. But in response, Satan asked the LORD, ‘Does Job fear God for nothing?’
10. Haven’t you surrounded him with a fence on all sides, around his house, and around all that he owns? You have blessed everything he puts his hands on, and you have increased his livestock in the land.
11. However, stretch out your hand and strike everything he owns, and he will curse you to your face.’
12. Then the LORD told Satan, ‘Very well then, everything he owns is under your control only you may not extend your hand against him.’ So Satan left the LORD’s presence.
 
(My note here. Satan and God were apparently on good terms at this time, and were these divine beings angels or other gods? (see Genesis 1;26). This must surely rate as a temptation of sort, but He sends Satan to do the work).
 
Job 16:11-14, ‘God hath delivered me to the ungodly, and turned me over into the hands of the wicked.  I was at ease, but he hath broken me asunder: he hath also taken me by my neck, and shaken me to pieces, and set me up for his mark.  His archers compass me round about, he cleaveth my reins asunder, and doth not spare; he poureth out my gall upon the ground.  He breaketh me with breach upon breach, he runneth upon me like a giant’.
 
So in this instance Satan carries out Gods will by testing Jobs love for God, but it was Satan who put the idea (tempted) in Gods mind. Was this just, good or fair?
 
Matthew 4:1-11
Jesus Is Tempted in the Wilderness
1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil (Satan?).
2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, ‘It is written, Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6 ‘If you are the Son of God,’ he said, ‘throw yourself down. For it is written, He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’
7 Jesus answered him, ‘It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendour.
9 ‘All this I will give you’, he said, ‘if you will bow down and worship me’.
10 Jesus said to him, ‘Away from me, Satan! For it is written, Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only’.
11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
(If you believe that Jesus is the son of  God and therefore a God in his own right, this must also be an example of Satan tempting God).
 
 
Now to good and evil for a moment, you are quite right in your assumption that evil has to exist in order for us to appreciate the good in life, and perhaps good and evil are the two sides of the same coin. Consider for a moment the abduction and rape of a six year old girl. (This happened in England last week) Is this Gods will? Many will say ‘God allowed it to happen. So did he condone it)? Is this Gods will’, or mans will? Or is it something that has nothing to do with god or man? The downside of free will perhaps, or the proof of Satans power?
It is just as inconceivable to believe in a being of absolute evil as it is to believe that a being could be absolute good.
 
Mark 11:12-15
Jesus Curses a Fig Tree.
12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry.
13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it.
 
Mathew 15:25-27
A Canaanite woman comes to Jesus for help and healing. He sends her away.
25 The woman came and knelt before him. ‘Lord, help me!’ she said.
26 But Jesus replied, ‘It is not right to take the childrens bread and toss it to the dogs’
27 ‘Yes, Lord’, she said, ‘even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters table’.
(She is healed and Jesus says, ‘your faith has made you well!’)
 
You ask for confirmation that God created everything perfect, I would have thought that your eyes and mind would confirm that. Just look about you at nature, birds, animals, mountains, hills. Verdant pastures, rivers and seas. Even you and me! I live on a mountain, surrounded by animals, birds, streams and woodlands. These are my friends, created and given to me in perfection by God. But if you want Biblical reference it is here, but no stronger than my own visions.
Genesis 1:31
And God looked upon all that He had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning, the sixth day.
Acts 10:15
The voice spoke to him a second time: ‘Do not call anything impure that God has made clean’.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect.
 
Now for the really controversial stuff.
 
Exodus 20:3-5 King James Version
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor worship them. For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the sins of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.
 
Here in this commandment God infers that there are other Gods beside him, not just ‘graven images’.
If God were secure in his sovereignty why would he make this commandment? This is like saying, ‘if you don’t work in my company you’ll work nowhere’.
Why would a supreme being, one who created everything ‘visible and invisible’, (Nicene Creed) need, or even want our constant praise. If you are the ‘greatest’ you don’t need to be constantly told.
I was once a Karate champion, a successful racing cyclist and a top rugby try-scorer. But you know what, kings die! Gods are omnipotent!
I knew how good I was, I didn’t need people to keep telling me. My time has past, but I have memories.
So my argument here is that a God that needs constant praise and acclamation is more insecure than me.
I don’t pray, I talk to God, and he doesn’t need my praise.
Yes I thank him when things go well, but I also question when things are bad.
 
Follow blindly?
1 Corinthians 13:11 King James Version
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
Mark 10:15
Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.
 
Genesis Chapter2
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis Chapter3
 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
 
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
 
So here in Genesis we have the departure of Adam and Eve from the state of grace in which they lived. I said earlier that I believed that Eden was not a place but a state of being. My reasoning for this is that Romans 6:23 states; ‘For the wages of sin is death’. Thereby intimating that if Adam and Eve hadn’t transgressed they would never have died.
Of course it would have to happen sometime as boredom would have eventually set in, and they do say that the devil finds work for idle hands.
That should be enough for everyone to get into for now, I hope I haven’t left anything out. My next question however is somewhat deep…………………Is it Gods will that caused me to write this original post and create the discussion and debate, or just my will?
I will leave you with a part of the second book of Esdras.
Esdras is bemoaning his lot and talking to the Angel Auriel.
‘Auriel’, he says, ‘what good is this life if we are to end with an eternity of torment, for no man is ever to be pure enough to pass the test and enter heaven’.
‘Esdras’, says Auriel, you are a learned man. Tell me then, how many grains of sand are there in the desert, and what creatures live in the deepest depths of the ocean’?
‘These things are beyond my knowledge’, said Esdras.
‘Well’, said Auriel. ‘If you don’t know these things of your world, how can you hope to know the things of the world to come!’
I write these things not because I have the answers, not even because I understand the questions, but that perhaps it will make people think, ponder and discuss and then maybe we can find answers together.
Blessed Be.
 
 
 
 
 
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  • popsthebuilder
#9
(07-15-2018, 03:18 AM)johngefnir Wrote: Hi Popsthebuilder, and all other interested parties. I am sorry this post has taken so long to appear. I have had to do some meditating, I will try to answer your points in the best way possible.
Remember we are all bound by our beliefs, faith and indoctrination, I however follow a different path. That of the Gnostic.
As Moonbearspeaks correctly states, the Bible is a collection of anecdotal stories. There was no CNN or BBC reporters on hand when God created the universe, or when the flood occurred, or even when Jesus was born. A Bishop friend of mine told me years ago, ‘remember John, the Bible was written by man for man, it is a compendium of other peoples thoughts and beliefs. A very small part of it can be considered as the word of God. Read not the words, but what is hidden behind them’.
We know there are inaccuracies in the Bible, Jesus’ birthday is given as December 25th, this cannot be so as there were lambs. The lambing season in Israel and Palestine is February to April, so Jesus was most probably born in March.
The reason we have December is because that was the birthday of Mithras, Ra, Lugh, Horus, and of course in one of the Roman religions Sol Invictus! For the new Christians it was easier to change the name than the date.
So what is religion? It is commonly supposed to be a belief system, based on divine entities and a path to spirituality.
All cultures had Gods, and followed what we could call a ‘religion’.
Ancient civilisations worshiped the spirit of the things which sustained them in life, trees, rivers etc. the Celts had a sophisticated religious culture based on nature and natural laws, the Egyptians had a religion based on the stars, and in particular Ra, the Sun God. The Judaic/Christian Bible and Koran is believed to be the inspired word of God.
This is not strictly so.
I must state at this point that I am not in favour of religions, any religion, I have studied many religions, primarily the Christian religion of course and attended many discussion groups. I have also looked at Hindu, Sikh and Buddhism. There are good things in all religious tenets, and many cross overs and convergences, so I don’t discount the value of a religious belief and would never criticise anyone for their faith.
Religion has been described as being mans search for God, while Mysticism is mans relationship with the Divine.
I am telling you this so you can see that my views are completely unbiased, I also believe that no matter what your religious view there is only one God/Creator spirit and he hears us all.
So Popsthebuilder you want scriptural evidence, but can we believe the evidence of the Biblical writers? Nothing was written at the time it happened, or when the words were spoken.
For example Genesis is purported to have been written by Moses. According to the Torah there are 26 generations between Adam and Moses, so how did Moses know what God was saying when he allegedly said, ‘let us make man in our own image’, and who was he talking to?
Supposition and guesswork, or just a fairy tale? (my note here, a question not a statement of fact).
I suppose some of you think I’m a little weird. I am a Mystic, I walk between the worlds. I am not a fortune teller, only God knows the future, but I talk with people past. I have communed in meditation with those far more knowledgeable than me.
I have gathered together some ‘scriptural evidence’ of Gods’ temptations. Chapter and verse so you can see for yourself.
 
Job chapter1
1.There once was a man in the land of Uza named Job. The man was blameless as well as upright. He feared God and kept away from evil.
2. Seven sons and three daughters had been born to him.
3. His livestock included 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 teams of oxen, 500 female donkeys, and many servants. Indeed, the man’s stature greatly exceeded that of many people who lived in the East.
4. His sons used to travel to each other’s houses in turn on a regular schedule and hold festivals, inviting their three sisters to celebrate with them.
5. When their time of feasting had concluded, Job would rise early in the morning to send for them and consecrate them to God. He would offer a burnt offering for each one, because Job thought, ‘Perhaps my children sinned by cursing God in their hearts.’ Job did this time and time again.
6. One day, divine beings presented themselves to the LORD, and Satan accompanied them.
7. The LORD asked Satan, ‘Where have you come from?’
In response, Satan answered the LORD, ‘From wandering all over the earth and walking back and forth throughout it.’
8. Then the LORD asked Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on earth. The man is blameless as well as upright. He fears God and keeps away from evil.”
9. But in response, Satan asked the LORD, ‘Does Job fear God for nothing?’
10. Haven’t you surrounded him with a fence on all sides, around his house, and around all that he owns? You have blessed everything he puts his hands on, and you have increased his livestock in the land.
11. However, stretch out your hand and strike everything he owns, and he will curse you to your face.’
12. Then the LORD told Satan, ‘Very well then, everything he owns is under your control only you may not extend your hand against him.’ So Satan left the LORD’s presence.
 
(My note here. Satan and God were apparently on good terms at this time, and were these divine beings angels or other gods? (see Genesis 1;26). This must surely rate as a temptation of sort, but He sends Satan to do the work).
 
Job 16:11-14, ‘God hath delivered me to the ungodly, and turned me over into the hands of the wicked.  I was at ease, but he hath broken me asunder: he hath also taken me by my neck, and shaken me to pieces, and set me up for his mark.  His archers compass me round about, he cleaveth my reins asunder, and doth not spare; he poureth out my gall upon the ground.  He breaketh me with breach upon breach, he runneth upon me like a giant’.
 
So in this instance Satan carries out Gods will by testing Jobs love for God, but it was Satan who put the idea (tempted) in Gods mind. Was this just, good or fair?
 
Matthew 4:1-11
Jesus Is Tempted in the Wilderness
1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil (Satan?).
2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, ‘It is written, Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6 ‘If you are the Son of God,’ he said, ‘throw yourself down. For it is written, He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’
7 Jesus answered him, ‘It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendour.
9 ‘All this I will give you’, he said, ‘if you will bow down and worship me’.
10 Jesus said to him, ‘Away from me, Satan! For it is written, Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only’.
11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
(If you believe that Jesus is the son of  God and therefore a God in his own right, this must also be an example of Satan tempting God).
 
 
Now to good and evil for a moment, you are quite right in your assumption that evil has to exist in order for us to appreciate the good in life, and perhaps good and evil are the two sides of the same coin. Consider for a moment the abduction and rape of a six year old girl. (This happened in England last week) Is this Gods will? Many will say ‘God allowed it to happen. So did he condone it)? Is this Gods will’, or mans will? Or is it something that has nothing to do with god or man? The downside of free will perhaps, or the proof of Satans power?
It is just as inconceivable to believe in a being of absolute evil as it is to believe that a being could be absolute good.
 
Mark 11:12-15
Jesus Curses a Fig Tree.
12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry.
13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it.
 
Mathew 15:25-27
A Canaanite woman comes to Jesus for help and healing. He sends her away.
25 The woman came and knelt before him. ‘Lord, help me!’ she said.
26 But Jesus replied, ‘It is not right to take the childrens bread and toss it to the dogs’
27 ‘Yes, Lord’, she said, ‘even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters table’.
(She is healed and Jesus says, ‘your faith has made you well!’)
 
You ask for confirmation that God created everything perfect, I would have thought that your eyes and mind would confirm that. Just look about you at nature, birds, animals, mountains, hills. Verdant pastures, rivers and seas. Even you and me! I live on a mountain, surrounded by animals, birds, streams and woodlands. These are my friends, created and given to me in perfection by God. But if you want Biblical reference it is here, but no stronger than my own visions.
Genesis 1:31
And God looked upon all that He had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning, the sixth day.
Acts 10:15
The voice spoke to him a second time: ‘Do not call anything impure that God has made clean’.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect.
 
Now for the really controversial stuff.
 
Exodus 20:3-5 King James Version
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor worship them. For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the sins of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.
 
Here in this commandment God infers that there are other Gods beside him, not just ‘graven images’.
If God were secure in his sovereignty why would he make this commandment? This is like saying, ‘if you don’t work in my company you’ll work nowhere’.
Why would a supreme being, one who created everything ‘visible and invisible’, (Nicene Creed) need, or even want our constant praise. If you are the ‘greatest’ you don’t need to be constantly told.
I was once a Karate champion, a successful racing cyclist and a top rugby try-scorer. But you know what, kings die! Gods are omnipotent!
I knew how good I was, I didn’t need people to keep telling me. My time has past, but I have memories.
So my argument here is that a God that needs constant praise and acclamation is more insecure than me.
I don’t pray, I talk to God, and he doesn’t need my praise.
Yes I thank him when things go well, but I also question when things are bad.
 
Follow blindly?
1 Corinthians 13:11 King James Version
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
Mark 10:15
Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.
 
Genesis Chapter2
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis Chapter3
 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
 
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
 
So here in Genesis we have the departure of Adam and Eve from the state of grace in which they lived. I said earlier that I believed that Eden was not a place but a state of being. My reasoning for this is that Romans 6:23 states; ‘For the wages of sin is death’. Thereby intimating that if Adam and Eve hadn’t transgressed they would never have died.
Of course it would have to happen sometime as boredom would have eventually set in, and they do say that the devil finds work for idle hands.
That should be enough for everyone to get into for now, I hope I haven’t left anything out. My next question however is somewhat deep…………………Is it Gods will that caused me to write this original post and create the discussion and debate, or just my will?
I will leave you with a part of the second book of Esdras.
Esdras is bemoaning his lot and talking to the Angel Auriel.
‘Auriel’, he says, ‘what good is this life if we are to end with an eternity of torment, for no man is ever to be pure enough to pass the test and enter heaven’.
‘Esdras’, says Auriel, you are a learned man. Tell me then, how many grains of sand are there in the desert, and what creatures live in the deepest depths of the ocean’?
‘These things are beyond my knowledge’, said Esdras.
‘Well’, said Auriel. ‘If you don’t know these things of your world, how can you hope to know the things of the world to come!’
I write these things not because I have the answers, not even because I understand the questions, but that perhaps it will make people think, ponder and discuss and then maybe we can find answers together.
Blessed Be.
 
 
 
 
 

First things first; thank you for your response.

Now then, it seems you didn't gather much from my post which leads me to believe it is not your intent to learn together, but your intent thus far seems bent on attempting to instill doubt in all sorts of believers, of which you conveniently exclude yourself. You've made very clear your stance here, and you may not like knowing I am very comfortable with you.....all that you are. I was really hoping you would have seen some truth being reflected through my words. But it seems you may have made some assumptions about me. Let me just get to the "meat" of your post shall we?

"Remember we are all bound by our beliefs, faith and indoctrination, I however follow a different path. That of the Gnostic"

First; gnostisism is a form of belief derived from knowledge. Each and every one of us has some level of actual knowledge. It is a belief system, like any other belief system. You attaching gnostic to your own beliefs seems like you placing your beliefs on some pedestal. Pride is an indicator. I'll leave it at that. And though you have claimed some form of previous indoctrination; I have not, and do not. Nor do I claim any sole "religion" as mine own. i am actually very against some "churches" due to the nearly overwhelming amount of evil greedy works that many of them have been guilty of in both the distant, and not so far past. i in no way hold current believers as responsible for the actions of the dead though. What I am getting at is that we can both claim gnostisism, but I can't rightly claim indoctrination as I was an atheist/ agnostic like yourself from young childhood up until 2011. i am 37 now though, and no longer atheist.

So let's just claim an even playing field, okay?

The Bible, to me, is a collection of writings of men inspired by GOD, so your pastor was right.

"A very small part of it can be considered as the word of God."

According to who? Your pastor that you do not agree with? To me very much of the Bible is suited to the edification and profitable directing of all individuals (all with spiritual discernment that is). These individuals are responsible for the profitable direction of the masses. And by profitable i in no way mean monetary gain or any thing that can be associated with greed.

"Read not the words, but what is hidden behind them"

Is the above supposed to be knowledge? Or just more promotion of confusion? You will need to break it down into layman's terms for me please.

"We know there are inaccuracies in the Bible, Jesus’ birthday is given as December 25th"

I'm sorry, but were exactly in the Bible does it say Jesus was born on December 25?

We agree that said date can be ascribed to the ancient rcc attempting to recrute new faces in the way of "pagans" or "polytheists". A simple search on saturnalia will prove such. That says nothing for the validity of the Bible or the lack of GOD'S capacity to bring the book about through the hands of HIS creation. It doesn't even limit the capacity of the book to me because, try as satan may; only the will of the LORD ever be done ultimately.

"I must state at this point that I am not in favour of religions, any religion, I have studied many religions, primarily the Christian religion of course and attended many discussion groups. I have also looked at Hindu, Sikh and Buddhism"

It seems here you are saying you aren't in favor of any assembly or amass of like minded people. We are social beings. People who believe in GOD who congregate together will never leave until man leaves. As long as they aren't promoting evil or chaos then what is the issue exactly? I have already stated that I am against some "religious" but to wrap em all up in a big blanket statement and drop em in the ocean isn't too cool. I have looked into Hinduism, Sikhism, gnostisism, native American beliefs, Jainism, asceticism, budhism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and also done much research on the Druze, Baha'i, Essenes, John the Baptiser, and other studies on theology, philosophy, and metaphysics, science, and logic. So we may be about even there too.

"I also believe that no matter what your religious view there is only one God/Creator spirit and he hears us all"

The above is good to hear. I am glad you said such. You seemed to be claiming atheism really......I thought.

"Popsthebuilder you want scriptural evidence, but can we believe the evidence of the Biblical writers?"

We can indeed believe the biblical teaching of direction as they pertain to man. This is what the little book is for. The exception would be the things that are apparently contrary to the will of any loving GOD, and those we are warned about throughout by the words of Jesus the Christ of GOD. I'm at a loss as to how someone so versed could honestly claim that the majority of the book is of misdirection. It is indeed the vast minority, and we are given a means to discern such as believers.

"Genesis is purported to have been written by Moses. According to the Torah there are 26 generations between Adam and Moses, so how did Moses know what God was saying when he allegedly said, ‘let us make man in our own image’, and who was he talking to? [/font][/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=medium][font=Times New Roman]Supposition and guesswork, or just a fairy tale"

Do you not understand that all metaphysical writings are not to be interpreted with a literal lense or temporally biased mindset? Yet you want to claim your views are without bias!? This is rhetorical. Fact is the creation account would have been disclosed to no man, nor would mere man have been conferred on such.
You leaving supposition, guesswork, and fairytail as the only options shows your lack of respect and proclivity towards biase though you would wish I alomg with others believed otherwise.
i personally reference myself as "we" at times. But in reality, my best guess is that Judaism was initially polytheistic as you may know.

I don't think you're weird. Probably pretty nifty walking between worlds and communing with the dead and all. I've mingled with all sorts of evil; within and without; never had the pleasure to speak to the dead though. Maybe I'm closed minded or simply never really tried. To me dead is inanimate to say the least. I wouldn't say their aren't spirits that can dwell or communicate with or within us though. What do the dead generally desire? (The ones you've spoken to)

I cannot agree that GOD showing satan the faith of HIS servant is equal to satan tempting GOD. I guess we just don't see it the same way; which isn't surprising given your general stance on scripture.

"Was this just, good or fair"

For who? Job? The willing servant of his LORD? hard things come to us all friend. It is those who persevere who make a difference. Who is to say that the perseverance of blessed Job wasn't and isn't a guidance and motivation to very many? Is it just to want for self over the need of many? Was blessed Job not blessed by any means to you? Reference the little book if you need to. There is no shame in ignorance; only I'm knowing wrong.

"(If you [believe that Jesus is the son of  God and therefore a God in his own right, this must also be an example of Satan tempting God)"

What the above is an example of is presupposition of the beliefs of another and false conclusions based on such inaccuracies.

satan does the will of GOD at times. It can be said that these "negative" things were done for the sake of others, and through the negation of greed or want of attainmnet for self over others. Jesus was tempted but not by GOD, but by self. If one resists the devil then the desire will leave you. Jesus resisted temptation. And since He was tempted He obviously isn't GOD almighty as a man. So GOD has still yet to have been tempted.

Your case about rape was very obviously the low desire of the perpetrator/s of such an act. That you question GOD here is telling yet again.

"It is just as inconceivable to believe in a being of absolute evil as it is to believe that a being could be absolute good."

Please describe attributes of your GOD/S, not demigods, or man gods, but the most powerful one, please.

The note about the fig tree is metaphor for that which does no works whatsoever is as dead as those who knowingly produce evil works. But I'm thinking you are attempting to show Jesus in what you presume is poor light.

"(She is healed and Jesus says, ‘your faith has made you well!’)"

What is your point with the above please? That she was healed?

"Just look about you at nature, birds, animals, mountains, hills. Verdant pastures, rivers and seas. Even you and me! I live on a mountain, surrounded by animals, birds, streams and woodlands. These are my friends, created and given to me in perfection by God. "

Define perfection in the way you mean. I am very far from perfect friend. There is no thing in this readily observable existence that is perfect; even symmetrical technically. I would expect you, being a closet atheist, to be aware of such.

"was very good"

Scripture definitely shows a difference in what is good and what is perfect.

What has been made clean is that which has been emptied and filled with the Spirit of GOD which is pure/ perfect. Same with the Rock on which the foundation of the believer is built. It is wholly of GOD; carrying out the will and Word of GOD alone. In fact; the Word of GOD could be said to be synonymous with the Spirit of GOD. Both are perfect and neither are a reference to creation or existence in general.

"No gods before me" is a reference to anything whatsoever the believer places before the known will of GOD in his own life, and has little to do with actual lesser gods to me.

"]Why would a supreme being, one who created everything ‘visible and invisible’, (Nicene Creed) need, or even want our constant praise."

Wholly for the sake of IT'S creation of course. How would one constantly remember that which is Holy yet still promote that which is vile, evil, abhorent, detestable?

"Is it Gods will that caused me to write this original post and create the discussion and debate, or just my will?"

I would venture to say it could be both, and could also be for very different reasons.

"I write these things not because I have the answers, not even because I understand the questions, but that perhaps it will make people think, ponder and discuss and then maybe we can find answers together"


I hope the above remains true for the both of us and any who care to read.

peace

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  • johngefnir
#10
P.S.

you seemed to have focused on scriptural reference as I had asked for it in at least one of my questions. Thank you for providing the scripture, but I am hoping you could go back over my initial response and answer some the other things I had brought up in response to your intitial post too. Maybe in conjunction with my second response or before or together or.... whatever.

peace

peace

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This is an online spiritual group which seeks to gather all genuine truth seekers from anywhere in the world irrespective of their cultural, intellectual or spiritual backgrounds, in order to share and learn from each others.